Plastics & Beyond

00;00;04;04 - 00;00;19;25
Lilian Judy
Welcome to the Plastics and Beyond Podcast, an SPE-sponsored podcast supporting a diverse, equitable and inclusive workforce. I'm your host, Lilian Judy, and I invite you to join me every month for new, diverse conversations.

00;00;23;28 - 00;00;54;07
Lilian Judy
Hi. My name is Lilian Judy, and I'm with the Plastics and Beyond Podcast. I'm here at ANTEC® 2022 and I look forward to having amazing conversations with amazing guest speakers. Hi. Nice to meet you finally in person. I know we've been able to kind of talk on Zoom and get to know each other and stuff. And I wanted to start off by reiterating something that you had mentioned during one of our conversations, and you mentioned that there is one in four Americans with disabilities.

00;00;54;15 - 00;01;13;07
Lilian Judy
And I think this is a fact that a lot of people don't know. I personally didn't know. And so this is going to be the basis of our conversation today. I want us to delve deeper in exploring how to, you know, create more space for people with disabilities. And so let's start off with you kind of introducing yourself.

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Lilian Judy
Tell me a bit about like how you got here and your background story.

00;01;17;11 - 00;01;45;26
James Emmett
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So I'm James Emmett. I am the owner of Jesse or James Emmett and Company. We are a disability inclusion consultancy, so we work with mostly manufacturers and distribution companies and retailers across the country, helping them build disability inclusion into their labor and diversity strategies. How I got here, I've as I'm a person with a disability, I was born without my left hand.

00;01;45;26 - 00;02;07;00
James Emmett
So I've been in the disability community, if you will, my whole life. I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin where expectations were put on me. My disability wasn't used, couldn't be used as an excuse, and it really drove me to to understand the importance of support. So I had been in the field of disability and employment my whole career.

00;02;07;22 - 00;02;21;19
James Emmett
And I have two daughters with disabilities, two older daughters with disabilities. And and it's so it's a very personal issue, but it's also been my career helping people with disabilities find careers and helping companies build disability inclusive environments.

00;02;22;12 - 00;02;49;28
Lilian Judy
And I personally believe that for me at least, my background is in plastics engineering and most of the work that I do in trying to advocate for women and women in STEM, STEM starts from personal experiences. My personal journey and the struggles that I went through. So I think that, like you mentioned, is very personal to you that helps you tell the story bigger, better, you know, and I know you mentioned that your daughter also has a disability.

00;02;50;08 - 00;03;07;09
Lilian Judy
How did that impact you when you I guess when you discovered that? Because obviously, when you grew up, you had to come to terms with it and make the best with what you have and try to, like, grow knowing this. But how did it affect you having a daughter with that disability as well?

00;03;07;09 - 00;03;30;03
James Emmett
Yeah, we actually we actually adopted our two oldest daughters who both have disabilities. So we have one daughter we got when she was very young. And one of our daughters, Casey, who's our oldest, we adopted when she was ten years old. But and both have had different journeys. My second oldest daughter, Allison, is living on her own now and is a full time employed and has done great, but has had a journey.

00;03;30;03 - 00;03;50;14
James Emmett
And Casey still lives with us in a mother in law apartment. She needs a little bit more support and, you know, what it really has taught me is I knew my journey as an individual with a disability, but being a parent and being an advocate is a completely different road. Right. And my daughters both have hidden disabilities. Right.

00;03;50;23 - 00;04;09;27
James Emmett
Intellectual and cognitive disabilities where I have a visible disability. So that road is different to right in terms of disclosure and how they talk about if they choose to talk about that versus I disclose everywhere I go. Right. So understanding the different journeys has really helped me, I think, become a better professional to your point. Yeah.

00;04;10;08 - 00;04;23;03
Lilian Judy
So why do you think there's such discrimination against people with disabilities, or maybe even there's a stigma on people with disabilities when it comes to employment or just even being in the workplace.

00;04;23;10 - 00;04;52;14
James Emmett
I think for our work there's so much business case in employing people with disabilities, but it is the fear and stigma. That's the number one barrier for companies to do this. And I think it really generates from a history of lack of understanding. Right. When you look at and some of that actually comes from our government in the United States, where we put people with disabilities on the Social Security rolls right away and we set parameters where they can't work full time.

00;04;52;14 - 00;05;14;05
James Emmett
And so it's almost an expectation of these poor people, right? This charity kind of that's the way we think about it. But the exciting thing in our community is this is really a time of empowerment, of advocacy, of really trying to think and make sure that politicians, businesses know that one in four Americans you're talking to are voting.

00;05;14;05 - 00;05;28;19
James Emmett
You know, is are in the disability community. One in four of your customers as a company are folks with disabilities. So it's a powerful community that no longer needs to be looked at as charity and have that stigma, but really more as as a group that's empowered.

00;05;29;17 - 00;05;59;22
Lilian Judy
So this podcast was basically put together to talk about DEI issues in the plastics and manufacturing industry. And I know that your company focuses on manufacturing companies, right? So what do you think is why would a plastics industry want to why would a plastics company want to create more opportunities for people with disabilities? Like what's the business case?

00;05;59;22 - 00;06;00;03
Lilian Judy
Yeah.

00;06;00;20 - 00;06;24;27
James Emmett
Great question. So we really refer to our work as now the alternative workforce, right? We know in the United States the labor market is as tight as it's ever been, especially. Right. And when you look at manufacturing and you look at the plastics industry, talent is hard to come by. And so recognizing that people with disabilities at professional levels, at entry levels and everywhere in between are great labor source, right?

00;06;24;27 - 00;06;47;01
James Emmett
So when we think about the alternative workforce, we think about people with disabilities, we also think about veterans and folks from disadvantaged backgrounds. But the business case for the for plastics companies to hire the hire these individuals is really this is a workforce that's still out there and available. Right. And when you're competing for talent, it's time to look everywhere.

00;06;47;01 - 00;07;09;01
James Emmett
Right. And you may, as a company, need to think about the way you interview somebody a little bit differently, for example, or the way you onboard somebody. But at the end of the day, you're going to get people who are going to rise way above expectations. They're going to be as productive as everybody else. Their studies have shown they're as safe or safer than than their counterparts in the workplace.

00;07;09;01 - 00;07;35;04
James Emmett
And the biggest win, the biggest business case for our companies is the reduction in turnover rate of people with disabilities stay in their jobs. Study after study after study shows the reduction in turnover. And again, in today's world, when a plastic company loses somebody, it's even a double blow because now I have a turnover. But I also now have to go back out in the labor force now, which is which is not which is such a difficult place to be right now.

00;07;35;04 - 00;07;45;27
James Emmett
So thinking about your workforce differently, but creating all these opportunities is really seen. We're not it's not charity. It's, it's completely a business proposition.

00;07;46;13 - 00;07;55;09
Lilian Judy
So I know you're not in HR but you touched a bit on interviewing them differently. How different is the interview process?

00;07;55;19 - 00;08;18;04
James Emmett
So we don't ask our companies to change their interview process, but we do what we call inclusive interview training of the people who do interviewing. We want them to understand that, for example, a candidate with autism may come in and be brilliant for one of the roles in a plastic company. But they may come in to a job interview and look down right and not give any eye contact.

00;08;18;17 - 00;08;42;04
James Emmett
And or they may or they may come out and said, I'm going to have a friend that came back and sit in their chair and show that led the body language that they're quote unquote, we read as disinterested. But the truth is, it's just the way that they're interacting in that new environment. Right. So we want in interviews and screening, for example, for companies to say, okay, let's look deeper at what a person can truly do.

00;08;42;11 - 00;08;56;04
James Emmett
And maybe it's not based on the answer to two or three questions. Maybe it's a work sample, maybe it's looking at their resume, maybe it's thinking about the way we screened and onboard people a little bit differently so you can find the best talent that's out there.

00;08;56;12 - 00;09;10;28
Lilian Judy
Okay. So if I have a company, let's say a plastics company, and I bring you on board, how would you help me? What's the process like? What do you what are you bringing to the team and how are we going to work together?

00;09;10;28 - 00;09;32;21
James Emmett
That's a.great question. So typically we have what we call embedded specialists. So when we work with a company, we will hire a local disability specialist in that geographic area and we will ask them to be on site with that company, at least for a startup. For some companies that are embedded specialist stays on depending on the number of people they want to hire.

00;09;32;21 - 00;09;54;18
James Emmett
But we typically start a project by doing training, disability awareness training of the leaders and hopefully even just quickly of some of the whole of the whole staff to kind of start to build that base of disability inclusion. So we do that training and then we go out and we build partnerships with local disability organizations and local veterans organizations.

00;09;54;24 - 00;10;17;17
James Emmett
So candidates start coming in and funneling into the jobs for that company. And then and then as candidates start to be higher, we work with the company to build support mechanisms and typically it's not like these grand support mechanisms or these grand accommodations, right? It's more just basic on the job supports that are already in place, but just kind of amping them up.

00;10;18;06 - 00;10;24;20
Lilian Judy
So what is the time period for this? Like how long would the person stay with the company for?

00;10;25;05 - 00;10;49;27
James Emmett
We want we want our folks to stay with the company forever. Right. That's really the focus. Right. We want to build not just jobs, but careers. And so for many of our customers, many of our company customers right now, they're hiring folks to stay with them for their whole career. And that's what's really exciting about people with disabilities is typically once they find a home in a company, they want to stay right?

00;10;49;29 - 00;11;12;11
James Emmett
They want to build their career there. And that may look like staying in that same role for 40 years, or that may look at a series of promotions depending on the individual. But we want that person to make a home in our customers. And then it's also then contributing to building a more inclusive culture as, as we roll along with our with our customers as well.

00;11;12;17 - 00;11;38;00
Lilian Judy
Okay. So doesn't that is that basically the person is settling in the role or because you're seeing they stay for a longer period of time, do they see to grow within those companies or do they end up just being comfortable because they see it as, okay, I've gotten this opportunity, let me stay with it as long as I can.

00;11;38;06 - 00;11;58;03
James Emmett
It's completely dependent on the person, right? So what we want is we want everybody to reach their maximum potential -- for some folks with significant employment barriers, their maximum potential may be an entry level or a second level position, but staying at that their whole career. But for many folks with disabilities. Right, that's not that they want to move up in their career.

00;11;58;03 - 00;12;17;24
James Emmett
They want to move. And we have a lot of folks who have moved from entry level to secondary level to management level. And that's the career progression we love. We love those stories, right. And the same as everyone else. Right. If there if within the plastics industry, if a person has upward a potential for promotion in another company, we want to do that too.

00;12;17;24 - 00;12;37;05
James Emmett
Right. We want to help that person as well. So we don't want to limit careers. But I think what you do see as a trend is people with disabilities will be very cautious of a move to another company if they feel good. The environment they're in, we don't want aluminum. But you know, we want to make sure that it is their choice on career movement.

00;12;37;05 - 00;12;47;19
Lilian Judy
So. Okay. And I want to go back to something that you touched on. There's a difference between physical disability and internal disability. You called it.

00;12;47;19 - 00;12;48;01
James Emmett
Invisible.

00;12;48;01 - 00;12;54;08
Lilian Judy
The invisible disability. Yeah. So can you touch a bit on that? Like what's the what are some examples of. Yeah, it's.

00;12;54;08 - 00;13;18;16
James Emmett
True. So we typically design a visible disability as a disability. You can see typically, right? So like myself, like a physical disability or like somebody who uses a wheelchair, you can see that disability right away versus what we call invisible disabilities are things like mental health issues, learning disabilities, ADHD, autism. These are disabilities that upon meeting a person you can't see.

00;13;18;16 - 00;13;39;06
James Emmett
Right. And it's a what the research in our field is starting to show. It's a different journey for folks who have visible disabilities versus invisible disabilities. Right. Because if I come into a job interview, I disclose to you right away. Right. I might not tell you I have a disability, but you can see I have a disability if I have autism.

00;13;39;13 - 00;13;57;24
James Emmett
I come into the interview and I choose not to disclose. You don't know I have a disability, right? And if I look down because that's the way I kind of cope with new environments. But I don't disclose. Right. You're not going to know that I have a disability in that. So we it's different journeys, journeys we witness.

00;13;57;24 - 00;14;05;12
James Emmett
And that's a pretty basic button between visible and invisible. There's a lot of other breakdowns, but that's how we tend to try to look at.

00;14;05;12 - 00;14;14;14
Lilian Judy
Yeah, okay. So how does a company start by implementing this initiative? How, where do they start?

00;14;14;14 - 00;14;32;01
James Emmett
Find a partner, right? I mean, that's really I mean, we'd love to, JEC, we'd love to help you. But whatever it is, there's a lot of good if you're a smaller company in your local community, there's going to be a local Easter Seals chapter or Goodwill chapter, an organization that supports people with disabilities. I really think it's important.

00;14;32;06 - 00;14;56;15
James Emmett
What research has shown is if companies try to go on the disability inclusion journey without external help and they don't have somebody internally that knows about disabilities, they tend to hit a lot of bumps right? So find a partner. Find somebody who knows about disability employment who knows how to help you build a plan. Right. And a lot of times the honest truth is we go into customers and for whatever reason, our services aren't right for them.

00;14;56;15 - 00;15;16;09
James Emmett
But we still give them a general map on how to begin because we want every company out there. There's no reason why every company in this country in 20 years shouldn't be implementing disability inclusion. Right. And that is really my goal before I retire. I don't want we still talk about companies that are doing this well and we put them up on a pedestal.

00;15;16;09 - 00;15;22;00
James Emmett
I want that to stop. I want every company to be doing this and this is business as usual with that still down the road.

00;15;22;00 - 00;15;35;08
Lilian Judy
Yeah. No, we need to normalize that for sure. Yeah. So you shared a lot with me and I hope with our listeners. And I wanted to end by asking you, you've been on this journey for how long has it been?

00;15;35;08 - 00;15;42;05
James Emmett
Well, I've been in I mean, your whole life. I'm 35 years. This I think this is actually my 35th year in disability.

00;15;42;05 - 00;16;03;26
Lilian Judy
And. Okay. All right. So what has you doing this job? What has it taught you about yourself? What have you learned on this journey? And what advice would you give to anyone that's trying to, you know, become an advocate for people with disabilities, whether they are, they have a personal connection to it or not? Like, how can we.

00;16;04;21 - 00;16;04;28
Lilian Judy
Yes.

00;16;05;13 - 00;16;19;29
James Emmett
I'm that's a great question. And I would say, when I first started in my field of disability, employment and rehabilitation counseling, when I was working as an advocate for jobseekers with disabilities, my impression was corporations and companies had all this money, so they should just be doing this.

00;16;19;29 - 00;16;20;19
James Emmett
Spending lots of money doing this, right?

00;16;20;19 - 00;16;41;29
James Emmett
But now that I've been on the company side for a while, I understand it takes patience right? Just like a jobseeker with disability to get to their career goal. You have to have support and patience. A company's not going to become disability inclusive overnight, and we're not going to get a company to be there by screaming them down, by saying, You must do this, you have to do this.

00;16;41;29 - 00;17;01;15
James Emmett
Look at the laws, right? We have to listen to their journey. We have to customize it to what their business needs are. And we have to have most of all, in my opinion, that patience and empathy that we demonstrate for people with disabilities, I also believe carries over the patience and empathy the way we work with our customers to help them employ lots of people with disabilities down the road.

00;17;01;19 - 00;17;01;28
Lilian Judy
Yeah.

00;17;02;14 - 00;17;27;28
Lilian Judy
Well, I know that was my last question, but I have one more. What has been the toughest part on this whole journey? Like I know, like even in trying to for me advocate for more women in STEM. Yes. I hit a lot of roadblocks like they're not everyone is interested in having this conversation. Not everyone is interested in supporting the movement.

00;17;28;11 - 00;17;33;02
Lilian Judy
So what has been some of the roadblocks you've hit along the way?

00;17;33;12 - 00;17;55;25
James Emmett
I think the couple of things that have been most difficult for me is sometimes watching people with disabilities lose their jobs because they weren't ready for a job or it wasn't a good fit. And early on in my career, I thought everybody should just everybody should work right in that one day. But life is sometimes about failure and learning from your failure and on the on the job seeker side, I've learned about the dignity of failure.

00;17;55;25 - 00;18;16;25
James Emmett
Right. And giving people an opportunity, understanding it may not always work out. Same thing on the company side, right? We hate to lose customers. And every time I lose a customer, you can ask my staff out there. I feel like I'm not just let the customer down, but I've left the field of disability inclusion down. But the truth is sometimes it's just not the right time in that company's history.

00;18;16;25 - 00;18;33;08
James Emmett
Sometimes it's we went in too fast. Sometimes we went it too slow. Sometimes it wasn't the right leadership. It was leadership change. And again, kind of the same thing, dignity of failure key but continuing to try to figure out how to help that company. But is it's going to happen? There's going to be failure on both sides.

00;18;33;08 - 00;18;37;09
James Emmett
I had to learn that. And I still struggle with that.

00;18;37;09 - 00;18;38;07
James Emmett
Sometimes because.

00;18;38;07 - 00;18;43;28
James Emmett
I want the movement to go right. But but part of that is, is learning from the mistakes you make.

00;18;45;08 - 00;18;52;18
Lilian Judy
Thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation and I've learned a lot. So thank you and hopefully you'll be back.

00;18;52;18 - 00;18;53;12
James Emmett
Thank you for having me.

00;18;54;02 - 00;19;04;21
Lilian Judy
Well, I hope you learned a thing or two from this episode. And I will defintely see you all on the next episode of the Plastics and Beyond podcast.